ah interesting convo. ben is always good for food for thought/arguement.
you sound just like me a few months ago. i felt like i was missing out on something by not believing. i remember in sophomore year, gwenn berry said something in hines's english class that had to do with lord of the flies. even though that book is jam packed with biblical allusions, i didn't understand them at all. i couldn't just pinpoint one and be like..."OH! that's in the bible!! ahhhh!!"
others could.
i felt like by not having been brought up into a religious family hurt my capabillities to understand certain topics and see through to a deeper meaning in life/books/etc. i felt like that "holy" awareness would only add to the knowledge i had already acquired in my life. also, i felt like i owed it to myself to learn the stories of the bible or atleast find a religion that fit me. now, i think i have changed my outlook and am looking for a religion that i fit INTO. maybe it's reversed, actually, i'm not sure yet.
but i agree....i feel disconnected from some vast and global understanding that could potentially save us all? ...or break us.
for a while, and we talked about this before, i believed that love was the meanign of life. to live for someone else, with someone else, inside of someone else. love=GOD. that whole big idea, agape, yes...it all made sense. however, i'd never been in love. i still haven't been. and this is also something i am missing out on. and am sad about...boo. but i know that i'll happen. maybe this should be my outlook on finding a faith too.
but then you made that comment that maybe as we continue along this journey, we'll ultimatley figure out that maybe misunderstanding or understanding that you're better off not belonging is the truth. who knows. it's perfect then that we're takingthe first steps.
back tot hat lovething real quick.....read the ALCHEMIST. love as an obstacle. interesting idea. but wrong in its views twoards the other party in the relationship? the one waiting for you? and i think, atleast as long as i'm in my young, idealist state, that i disagree with you Greg and believe that love can be all that we want it to be and dream it to be. and i'll keep believing in that. and in love.
as for me now, I believein God. GOD = energy.
Tuesday, September 26, 2006
God and Me (Greg)
I would like to begin this experience with my personal feelings about God/religion as of right now. To me this entire experience is personal and fortunately academic as well. The conversation below is one i had with a friend of mine, i think that for the most part it identifies a few of my personal beliefs and why i chose to do this project (I prefer to use the word quest):
[20:37] the ben chase: do you believe in god
[20:38] lvxxxvl: I'm not sure...
[20:38] lvxxxvl: and that's in part why I'm so interested
[20:39] lvxxxvl: actually i can say, as of right now i cannot believe absolutely that there is a god, not can i refute its existence absolutely therefore i cant deny its existence
[20:39] the ben chase: a ha.
[20:39] the ben chase: not meant to be a laugh, an actual a ha!
[20:40] the ben chase: i would agree.
[20:40] lvxxxvl: indeed
[20:44] lvxxxvl: so i feel like i may never know for my self the truth or what i believe is the truth about god/religion, but i want to experience it all to some extent, learn try to understand, and perhaps someday believe with all my power in one concrete thing that i can believe beyond any doubt, and feel that feeling associated with finding god and being one with it.... i hope i find it i may not but perhaps the quest in doing so will teach me a thing or two and ill end up alright and still feel comfortable not knowing... perhaps we don't need to know so much as we should strive to understand
[20:45] the ben chase: i feel like i need to believe in something.
[20:46] lvxxxvl: i feel the same exact way... like i need to believe... but in doing this project and perhaps others like it in the future maybe I'll either find god, and actually believe, or find that i don't need god or what have you...
[20:46] lvxxxvl: its really difficult
"It" is difficult. What is it that we are here for, why, to whom or to what do we thank for simply existing? I'm not sure and as i said i may never know. But here is me, trying.
I begin with Islam. Islam is seemingly diametrically opposed to the west, and our mostly christian values. It's controversal role in the modern world makes it very relevant, to me and of course society. On a more personal level, I have been fortunate enough to become friends with a few Muslims that have shared with me their passion and there devotion to Allah and his Prophet. It is there stories, and the religions relevance in our world that at first attracts me to to it.
As I said i am trying, and this is my first step in the quest for understanding, learning, and discovery.
[20:37] the ben chase: do you believe in god
[20:38] lvxxxvl: I'm not sure...
[20:38] lvxxxvl: and that's in part why I'm so interested
[20:39] lvxxxvl: actually i can say, as of right now i cannot believe absolutely that there is a god, not can i refute its existence absolutely therefore i cant deny its existence
[20:39] the ben chase: a ha.
[20:39] the ben chase: not meant to be a laugh, an actual a ha!
[20:40] the ben chase: i would agree.
[20:40] lvxxxvl: indeed
[20:44] lvxxxvl: so i feel like i may never know for my self the truth or what i believe is the truth about god/religion, but i want to experience it all to some extent, learn try to understand, and perhaps someday believe with all my power in one concrete thing that i can believe beyond any doubt, and feel that feeling associated with finding god and being one with it.... i hope i find it i may not but perhaps the quest in doing so will teach me a thing or two and ill end up alright and still feel comfortable not knowing... perhaps we don't need to know so much as we should strive to understand
[20:45] the ben chase: i feel like i need to believe in something.
[20:46] lvxxxvl: i feel the same exact way... like i need to believe... but in doing this project and perhaps others like it in the future maybe I'll either find god, and actually believe, or find that i don't need god or what have you...
[20:46] lvxxxvl: its really difficult
"It" is difficult. What is it that we are here for, why, to whom or to what do we thank for simply existing? I'm not sure and as i said i may never know. But here is me, trying.
I begin with Islam. Islam is seemingly diametrically opposed to the west, and our mostly christian values. It's controversal role in the modern world makes it very relevant, to me and of course society. On a more personal level, I have been fortunate enough to become friends with a few Muslims that have shared with me their passion and there devotion to Allah and his Prophet. It is there stories, and the religions relevance in our world that at first attracts me to to it.
As I said i am trying, and this is my first step in the quest for understanding, learning, and discovery.
Thursday, September 21, 2006
the emerging "poppedeanism"......
Today was absolutely insane. Honestly, I had thought about getting to do this first interview for so long, and actually being there and getting it done....was WOW. So "le premier" journey began at school, then a little stop at subway, another for some deodorant, and then we were off to the highway. ...we definitely need to videotape these carrides. Ok, so when we finally found the place, we were a little surprised just because we didn't know what to expect at first. Just because the phonebook had the place listed as an Islamic center, i figured that it would be just an ordinary building. I wish I had had my camera...damn. White and green, with a lot of scripture written above the doorway, kids on the playground behind the parking lot, renovations. Then we got prepared in the car and went in. Greg-we need to make sure to bring tape recorders every time, listening in on the return trip was awesome even though it lasted for like 5 seconds. So, walking in, Greg told me to step in with my right foot. The second we entered, there was this tall, sturdy looking African American man wearing all white robes and a white hat (name??/traditional outfit??) and he immediately called my name and greeted me. The three men in the foyer had no shoes on and there was a shoes rack on the left. A bunch of kids were running around. I put out my hand to greet him and he kept his hands on his hips and said, "No, I don't shake your hand. I shake his." He shook hands with Greg and then guided us into a small, sort of empty office where we sat down. The door remained open and he sat behind a desk as another man in "American" clothing, but with the same hat on, sat across from us with his daughter on his lap. (I just want to remember this).
So we did our intro....or more like Greg did. Nice job by the way. The first question I asked was why no shoes were worn in the center. The lawyer guy (name on card, right?) told me that it was unhygenic to carry impure substances on your feet and body during prayer. My notes are kind of sort of definitely scattered so I'm not sure which direction we went in next, but I'm going to guess that we probably began questioning about the backgrounds of the two men. THe lawyer was born in CT and raised into a Muslim family. The imam (no that's not his name) was born in Timbuktu (sp?) and went to school in Cairo, Egypt. It didnt' seem like they had had any questions or confusion regarding their loyalty or trust in their religion at a young age. What I thought was intriguing was that these men were both so aware and sure of themselves when they spoke of their faith. With every question we asked, whihc turned out to be very few, we were provided with 230945782340985723490 hour long answers. The Imam could go on for days about Islam and it was clear that they both knew more about the religion and understood their own interpretation of the religion than anyone I've ever met. In the beginning, both men made sure Greg and I understood that the whoel idea behind Islam is complete submission to Allah. God is with a Muslim every moment of every day, and when he isn't, prayer is used as a reminder of one's duty to Allah. Imam identified the Koran as the last direct word of God and as the most authentic considering the BIble has been rewritten numerous times while the Koran has remained the same. Muslims accept all prophets -even those read about in other religions- as significant prophets of Allah- the one God that is worshipped by all with a different name. As Imam got started on the fundamental faiths of Islam, things seemed a bit ordinary (for lack of a better word) to me. He listed the 6 articles of faith as : 1) a belief in Allah, 2) belief in angels, 3) a belief in all books that have been revealed to mankind, 4) a belief in ALL prophets sent from Allah, 5) believe in the day of Judgement where each human willl reach in death and account for all of their deeds to the Lord, and 6) an acceptance of Allah's decree or will...meaning an understanding that Allah has predicted things a certain way and accounted for things to happen a certain way...destiny maybe? Greg, you made an interesting point in the car that even though all of these things were previously writtena dn predicted by Allah, they nevertheless seemed to occur or fall into place almost identically to the way ALlah had told it. Imam had constantly reminded us that Muslims must make the most important choice of whether or not to be good or to follow evil. He said that Satan is in all of us, running in our bodies faster than blood, and that we must take refuge from Satan via belief and love and submission to God. We were talking about how it appears as though all human beings are inherently good and have naturally followed the will of Allah consciously or not. Cool thought.
Anyway, we knew that Islam, like Judaism, has its central focus around the expression or act of faith rather than the feeling or thought of it. Orthopraxy, right? Without us having to ask, Imam segued right into the 5 pillars and how these signified the proof of one's surrender to Allah. Imam himself, as well as the lawyer, had each made the hajj three times each and though they did not describe the experience, his passion seemed to do all of the talking.
We also talked in the car about how different Muslims are compared to Christians in our society today. Though this may be a huge and ignorant generalization, it appeared as though the two Muslim men whom we spoke with KNEW and UNDERSTOOD everything there is to know about their faith. They didn't try toe ducated us, they tried to tell us and enlighten us. It is almost as if the 5 pillars and daily submission to God make Islam the more pure and real religion out there. not only is it common, but it is a personal obligation to Muslims to pray 5 tmies daily and remind themselves of the presence of Allah. THey want to be reminded of their duty and love for Allah. THat is truly unique. Not many Christians, or at leat in my knowledge, think about God each and every day. It is more about the association to Christianity that is important, rather than the proof ...whatever. cool.
So, it was....different to hear about imam's approach to how the Koran addresses science and geology and physics. He seemed more defendant about this aspect of Islam than any other, but nonetheless, hew as still amazed at his own faith. I still dont' really comprehend all of the science stuff, but that's a good thing he gave us those Islam-for Dummie science book thing with the cool crazy incredible pic on the cover. Must look at that.
Ok, so obviously there is al ot to talk about, but I have so much homework left...calc test tomorrow and must finally finish the college essay by tonight/slash early morning. so i'm off with one last thought.......and lots of unanswered questions.....
Remember the Timothy McVay scenario Imam brought up? IF he were a Muslim, our faith would be attacked from all angles. But Christianity was criticized or blamed for his bombings in Oaklahoma City. Interesting thought and later question = why do you think Islam is targeted? History? Stigma? Both? East v. West? HUH??
And must learn more about Islam and women...handshake??
my new signoff =
WOW, kristin
So we did our intro....or more like Greg did. Nice job by the way. The first question I asked was why no shoes were worn in the center. The lawyer guy (name on card, right?) told me that it was unhygenic to carry impure substances on your feet and body during prayer. My notes are kind of sort of definitely scattered so I'm not sure which direction we went in next, but I'm going to guess that we probably began questioning about the backgrounds of the two men. THe lawyer was born in CT and raised into a Muslim family. The imam (no that's not his name) was born in Timbuktu (sp?) and went to school in Cairo, Egypt. It didnt' seem like they had had any questions or confusion regarding their loyalty or trust in their religion at a young age. What I thought was intriguing was that these men were both so aware and sure of themselves when they spoke of their faith. With every question we asked, whihc turned out to be very few, we were provided with 230945782340985723490 hour long answers. The Imam could go on for days about Islam and it was clear that they both knew more about the religion and understood their own interpretation of the religion than anyone I've ever met. In the beginning, both men made sure Greg and I understood that the whoel idea behind Islam is complete submission to Allah. God is with a Muslim every moment of every day, and when he isn't, prayer is used as a reminder of one's duty to Allah. Imam identified the Koran as the last direct word of God and as the most authentic considering the BIble has been rewritten numerous times while the Koran has remained the same. Muslims accept all prophets -even those read about in other religions- as significant prophets of Allah- the one God that is worshipped by all with a different name. As Imam got started on the fundamental faiths of Islam, things seemed a bit ordinary (for lack of a better word) to me. He listed the 6 articles of faith as : 1) a belief in Allah, 2) belief in angels, 3) a belief in all books that have been revealed to mankind, 4) a belief in ALL prophets sent from Allah, 5) believe in the day of Judgement where each human willl reach in death and account for all of their deeds to the Lord, and 6) an acceptance of Allah's decree or will...meaning an understanding that Allah has predicted things a certain way and accounted for things to happen a certain way...destiny maybe? Greg, you made an interesting point in the car that even though all of these things were previously writtena dn predicted by Allah, they nevertheless seemed to occur or fall into place almost identically to the way ALlah had told it. Imam had constantly reminded us that Muslims must make the most important choice of whether or not to be good or to follow evil. He said that Satan is in all of us, running in our bodies faster than blood, and that we must take refuge from Satan via belief and love and submission to God. We were talking about how it appears as though all human beings are inherently good and have naturally followed the will of Allah consciously or not. Cool thought.
Anyway, we knew that Islam, like Judaism, has its central focus around the expression or act of faith rather than the feeling or thought of it. Orthopraxy, right? Without us having to ask, Imam segued right into the 5 pillars and how these signified the proof of one's surrender to Allah. Imam himself, as well as the lawyer, had each made the hajj three times each and though they did not describe the experience, his passion seemed to do all of the talking.
We also talked in the car about how different Muslims are compared to Christians in our society today. Though this may be a huge and ignorant generalization, it appeared as though the two Muslim men whom we spoke with KNEW and UNDERSTOOD everything there is to know about their faith. They didn't try toe ducated us, they tried to tell us and enlighten us. It is almost as if the 5 pillars and daily submission to God make Islam the more pure and real religion out there. not only is it common, but it is a personal obligation to Muslims to pray 5 tmies daily and remind themselves of the presence of Allah. THey want to be reminded of their duty and love for Allah. THat is truly unique. Not many Christians, or at leat in my knowledge, think about God each and every day. It is more about the association to Christianity that is important, rather than the proof ...whatever. cool.
So, it was....different to hear about imam's approach to how the Koran addresses science and geology and physics. He seemed more defendant about this aspect of Islam than any other, but nonetheless, hew as still amazed at his own faith. I still dont' really comprehend all of the science stuff, but that's a good thing he gave us those Islam-for Dummie science book thing with the cool crazy incredible pic on the cover. Must look at that.
Ok, so obviously there is al ot to talk about, but I have so much homework left...calc test tomorrow and must finally finish the college essay by tonight/slash early morning. so i'm off with one last thought.......and lots of unanswered questions.....
Remember the Timothy McVay scenario Imam brought up? IF he were a Muslim, our faith would be attacked from all angles. But Christianity was criticized or blamed for his bombings in Oaklahoma City. Interesting thought and later question = why do you think Islam is targeted? History? Stigma? Both? East v. West? HUH??
And must learn more about Islam and women...handshake??
my new signoff =
WOW, kristin
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